Cassandra Cain (Wulfmyth) vs Buffy Summers (KingGojira)

Lets continue

Combat Skill Part I: The Validity of Cassandra's Accolades

Accolades are fun and dandy, but truth is accoclades are all in admissable in a debate of logic and looking at things on paper. Batman is still a character who can out think and smart Batgirl regardless of her move reading. He has outsmart her. Batman may lose in a straight up punch and kick only fight, but in terms of tactics and out thinking Cain, he sure can, and thus more skilled.
Barbara is also discredit as a accolade. Batgirl techniques are not perfect, nor unsurpass, ever heard of Karate Kid? The guy who has super powers due to his perfect techniques and knowledge on Martial Arts? Cain does not approach this. So her statements mean little as Word of God. Accolades are not that useful anymore than Buffy's own as the top warrior of her Universe. So lets just move on to more quantifiable feats. 

Yes, Batman is smarter than Cassandra and can beat her with tricks and gadgets, but we're talking about ones fighting skills, i.e. purely martial arts. In that case, Batman is outclassed by Cassandra. This concept has been repeated time and again:

-- Batgirl #56

If you want more proof, look no further than their fight in Batgirl #50:

https://imgur.com/gallery/PB729Nz

In this fight: Batman and Batgirl both get gassed by Soul(a drug that increases someone's rage and so they wouldn't be holding back),but Batgirl was injured from a previous fight against a bunch of superhumans, and Batman abused his gear to blindside Cass. But the fight was still a stalemate. So, despite disadvantageous circumstances, Cassandra stalemated Batman(or you could argue she was winning since she landed more blows on him, than vice-versa). Take out the circumstances, and she would've won. So in terms of martial arts skill -- which is what I'm discussing here -- Cass wins. If you wanna talk about overall combative effectiveness, that's fine, but that includes stuff like stats and gear and the battlefield abuse, etc. I'm just discussing straight up skill in H2H.

As for Oracle, she didn't have Karate Kid in her files, therefore the accolade doesn't apply to him. But it does apply to other people in her files, which are people like Slade, Bruce, Shiva, Dick, Connor, David, etc. Which is actually what I said in my post:

 (Oracle's files contain data on Deathstroke, Batman, Lady Shiva, Black Canary, among many others) 

So, yeah, you can try and argue semantics, but the point that the accolades get across is that nobody on present day DC Earth(Karate Kid is from the future and didn't appear in the mainstream timeline until later) is on par with Cass. And that's confirmed by Word of God later on in the very same files, so my accolades stand.

Part II: Training

Actually this is a misleading scan. Not saying your liying, but I been in this argument before. States she been train in every weapon correct? 
 Then Batman states she was NEVER train in non lethal weapons like stick fighting. Hmmmm.... I feel this scan is discredited. Its proven a lie. She never mastered every known weapon to man at all, and Batman made it clear she learn on "assassin" weapons. Meanwhile Buffy is a expert in all weapons, and kinda shown in the show to use everything as a weapon. Buffy uses swords of all kinds, axes of all kinds, knives of all kinds, bows, crossbows, guns, missile launchers, polearms, spears, staffs, sticks, stakes, shovels, pickaxes, scythes, flails, maces, sledgehammers, ect ect ect.  

Well, yes, Cain only taught her to use lethal weapons, but later Batman teaches her non-lethal forms of combat as well(again, note that in the scan both you and I posted it says she quickly learned stick fighting). And we have also seen Cass use a variety of weapons from throwing stars, to arrows, to various types of swords, various types of guns even. Not that the versatility in weapon-handling is relevant since neither Cassandra nor Buffy have spiked balls in their standard gear lol.

Agreed. She has a basic understanding of Batmans 127 Martial Arts. Its hard to guess what martial arts Buffy knows, we know Angel, Spike, and Giles train here. Giles stated Akido and Jujitsu. Angel is only stated in knowing Judo though on screen he shown Tai Chi as well. Spike knows for a fact Tae Kwon Do and Brazillian Jujistu. We also know one of Buffy past lives was a martial artist monk from the Boxer Rebellion, though what particular art is unknown, but was confirm to be a actress who knew Kung Fu of some kind. The Stunt Woman who did Buffy fighting scenes was Sophia Crawford and in interview she used all her Martial Arts to mix match for the fight scenes and this included Jujitsu, Tae Kwon Do, Eskrima, and Kick Boxing. Jeff Pruit the stunt coordinator also utilize his Tang Soo Do for the fight scenes. 

Actually, Batgirl started out with "basic understanding" when Batman gave her the holo-disk, but she later kept on training and improving herself in all of those forms of combat, as we saw throughout the Batgirl vol 1 solo run, and it was stated as much near the end of the run. Additionally, it's also been stated she mastered nearly all forms of combat during her career:

-- Batgirl: Convergence #1

And this isn't even mentioning her additional training with Onyx, Black Canary, Catwoman; or the fact that she learned Thanagarian fighting styles and the Kugo-Ryu.

 So all in all there is a large pool of Martial Arts Buffy knows or shown in the show and comics. Not the basics of 127, but then this is the only "Known" ones. I like to add yet again Buffy is a long line of Slayers who come from Martial Arts training and all parts of the world train to fight other skilled superhuman beings, and their knowledge is within Buffy by default. buffy simply gets training to "hone" it from Giles and other characters.  

And that's all well and good, but Buffy isn't facing all the basic styles of fighting here. She'd also be up against a bunch of fighting styles that exist only in DC's universe. For example, the Falling Leaf(no, not the snowboarding move), a fighting technique that not even Batman mastered, and is only used by Cassandra Cain and her father:

-- Batgirl #49

And she learned this one really nice technique that allows her to stop a man's heart and restart it whenever she wants to:

-- Batgirl #6

Or various fighting styles that can paralyze someone temporarily just by adding pressure to the center of their body:

-- Batgirl #25

And a technique that allowed her to get through a telekinetic Kryptonian Force Field:

-- Superboy #85

Oh, and a bonus strength feat since she managed to at least somewhat hurt Superboy with the strike, which is awesome.

These are all techniques that are alien to Buffy, and thus she'd have no knowledge on them.

The is the only time I seen Cain do anything "blind fighting" wise required a foe to smell like Strawberries and was nothing more than a kick. Meanwhile Buffy has several times shown the ability to fight invisible foes (several at a time actually), and shown long range accuracy with throwing weapons while blind. She clearly does it better.
(Here both Buffy and her foes are invisible lol)
(Catching a sword strike while blinded from the most powerful Vampire, ****)
Anyway, neither character is fighting blind, but my point is Buffy has quantifiable training and skill here to show off her training. 

Alright, I'll concede this point only because it isn't really relevant since neither Buffy nor Cain are blinded in this fight.

 Yes, and Buffy has been train to hone her innate skill through Giles (Ripper) who was the greatest known Watcher of the order, Angel who was the most infamous and notorious Vampire in history, and spike who was the SECOND most infamous and notorious Vampire and specialize in killing Slayers. Not to mention the innate training of past Slayers from the thousands before her.  

Alright, but first of all you need to quantify how Buffy's masters stack up to people like Shiva, Deathstroke, David and Batman. Next, you'd need to show me if Buffy surpassed them, since we know Cassandra is a good deal more skilled than any of her mentors.

Part III: Cassandra's Special Talent Vs Buffy's

Alright my friend, I am glad you did bring this up, beucause guess what? In some ways Buffy has a DIFFERENT ability with eh SAME results. Yes you read that right. Remeber when I said Buffy has thousands of past Slayers in her head? Their expeirence and knowledge? That grants Buffy the same results as Cain gets from her abilities.
As stated, Buffy when first getting her power has no knowledge of Martial Arts, or Weapons, she is just a sheltered freshman high schooler. Yet as the Watcher proved to her, she knows things and able to do things, impossible skillful things, thanks to her knowledge floating in her head, just waiting to be train. Cain has Move Reading, but Buffy has "Expertise" as we define is a key component of skill. Buffy has the knowledge and experience of thousands of train badass super humans that Buffy draws on. A scan of Fray, the only Slayer who never gets this ability.
 
When Giles first trains Buffy he starts her with staff fighting, saying it will take hours for her as a Slayer to master it and beat him, yet her connection (she is unique as a Slayer) allows her to beat Giles first time touching a staff.
Thats the point here. This was Buffy first time training. In one year, while doing Highschool and managing a home life, Buffy masters every weapon and fighting style the Watchers could teach her. In one year, and Buffy was not dedicated to it. Thats the level of experience and skill at play. Honestly she can watch Batgirl martial arts and likely learn them in minuets herself. She done this before. Its part of her power set. 

Everything you said is all well and good, and I won't deny that it is impressive, but this doesn't counter anything the Blackbat can do. This actually feeds Cassandra's noticeable advantage. Why? Because Buffy draws on past experiences, histories and memories of others to use a fighting style, whereas Cass learns a new fighting style the moment she sees someone else using it.

Buffy doesn't have knowledge of the Falling Leaf technique, the Koga-Ryu, the various nerve-pinching techniques unique to DC's earth. Meanwhile, any combat style Buffy draws up with her Slayer talent will immediately be forseen, analyzed and learned by Cassandra.

Buffy's talent doesn't cancel out Cassandra's, it only boosts it.

Part IV: Feat comparisons

 I see this is going to derail the debate, and its turning into "my popular franchise of well known characters beat these popular franchise of well known characters" vs "my more obscure franchise of lesser known beat these obscure of lesser knowns." In other words I will have to put in twice, three times the work to show off my lesser known characters, and their accomplishments which will bog down this thread. 
The whole "A vs B and won" as proof of something is not proof at all. Its not quantifiable and left to the whims of the writers. I really do not want to go down this false logic rabbit hole mate. I rather show tangible proof and stand alone feats than the nonsense of me proving how skilled Spike, Angel, or the basic Vampire fighter is and then show off hundreds and thousands of scans of Buffy beating them regardless. Lets not do that, its proving nothing. I rather post my respect thread here, and ask any reader of this debate and yourself to look up the skill sections and fight sections of Spike, Angel, and Faith. 

Fair enough, I suppose. But I think it genuinely goes without saying that DC/Marvel has a sort of baseline that is higher than most, if not all other, franchises. They have more named characters, more detailed descriptions of fighting styles, more liberty to break any laws of reality, etc. So being best of the best amongst the likes of Batman, Deathstroke, Shiva, Cain, Bronze Tiger, Black Canary, to me at least, is better than being the best amongst Angel, Spike, Faith, etc.

While I would admit that debating cross-universe in topics like skill can get a bit tricky, I feel like it's still possible.

 However to counter your post right now, I can post how Buffy in one night killed over 30+ Vampires who were prepped for her in issue #39.  

A nice feat, though I'd wager Cassandra dropping 200 of the deadliest fighters on DC Earth(and Rebirth Cass, no less) within an hour is still a better feat.

 Buffy drops them easy. Anyway, I really, REALLY dont want to pursue this who has a bigger dick by defeating who line as it again pushes away the quantifiable feats on paper for feats of who manage to do what in plot, as well who beat what characters that readers may be more familiar with.  

The problem is: what do you define as a quantifiable feat? We can't just say "my character knows this many styles, and yours knows this many", we also need to look at how they apply their knowledge of these styles, and their respective talents. To do that, we really need to look at their fights against other characters we can quantify.

Your attempt to equalize the two here:

Cain has many known martial arts. So does Buffy. 
Cain is a expert in all weapons, well lethal ones, and so is Buffy who knows lethal and non lethal for a fact.
Cain has move reading and can "Task Master" copy techniques. Buffy on the other hand has the innate knowledge of thousands of martial artist from around the world and time periods since caveman days, and can tap knowledge to master said MAs others try to use on her in turn. 
Buffy has insane good blind fighting and accuracy. Cain has some decent blind fighting and accuracy. 
Both have fought and beaten meta humans and "gods" compared to men in their franchises. 
In short Buffy and Cain are on par with each other period.

Is being disingenuous. For example:

1. Batgirl also mastered non-lethal weapons

2. Batgirl theoretically knows more fighting styles, since she's from a universe that has a ton of made-up techniques specific only to it

3. Her talent is actually different than TaskMaster's(I'd argue Buffy's talent is closer)

4. Your gods and metas still aren't quite as quantifiable as mine

 Buffy only disadvantage is Cain can possibly predict her moves before hand to a degree, but then Buffy can draw on her tactics and knowledge, and expert accuracy to greater effect than Cain can for sure. I dont see a cut and dray winner in skill here.

So how does Buffy drawing on her talents counter Cassandra's ability? Like I've detailed above, if anything it only helps Cass, as she'll either be familiar with the fighting style or she'll learn a new one and adapt to it.

As for Accuracy, again I fail to see how that'll help unless Buffy has a hundred throwing stars. And I don't see how Buffy is better at accuracy either. As an example, an exhausted, malnourished Batgirl casually caught several shurikens(shurikens that were travelling too fast for several of Shiva's best students to react in time) and then proceeded to throw them with enough speed and accuracy that three assassins(who were also taught by Shive and were also hiding meters away in trees) all got tagged:

-- Batgirl #71

Honestly, this is as good a feat of accuracy as any you've posted.

Skill Conclusion:

There's one thing we haven't properly addressed: how Buffy and Cassandra apply their skill in combat. Yes, we can argue the technicalities all day, from special abilities, to who knows more fighting styles(tho I'd wager Cass is better in these fields as well) but the deciding factor really is just who can use these talents better in combat.

You can, and you have argued that Buffy and Cass both know a similar amount of martial arts and thus they are on par. Well, I could argue that people like Lady Shiva know as many(if not more) fighting styles than Cassandra, but she still beat her twice:

https://imgur.com/gallery/BWxyMKO

https://imgur.com/gallery/z8mtLrL

You can argue Deathstroke has hybrid styles that would leave most other master martial artists baffled(hell, Cassandra has admitted as much herself), but she still danced around him and forced him to use a desperation tactic to flee:

https://imgur.com/gallery/36PaqGm

You can argue Batman has a better understanding of the 127 major fighting styles they both mastered, yet I've already shown how a fight between the two ended despite disadvantageous circumstances for Cass.

Basically, even if I admit Buffy has as much knowledge as Cassandra(she doesn't), or that her talents and tactics can counter Cassandra's unique abilities(they don't), Orphan's on paper feats are still better, because she has bested people who you could argue have these same attributes.

So yeah, Cassandra is more skilled, has better/more quantifiable feats, and has a special talent that gives her an extra edge. This category goes to her.

Gear:

Since I still, admittedly, don't know too much about Buffy's stats, I'll leave that part of the debate for when you take over with your next post. But for now I'll mention some cool gear the Orphan has. First of all: the iconic batarangs, which can cut through steel and the skin of a metahuman:

-- Batgirl #3

-- Batgirl #32

She has gauntlets that can block swords and other piercing weapons:

-- Detective Comics #956

She has claws of her own:

-- Red Robin #25

And that's just the beginning. I'll get into some of the more... dangerous stuff later. For now, I don't see how Buffy can handle someone more skilled than her, who also has weapons that can dismember her.

Your move @King Gojira